tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8957911.post657058801177657539..comments2024-03-27T21:41:50.122-07:00Comments on Iron Tongue of Midnight: Zerbinetta Reveals Her Secret IdentityLisa Hirschhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14014924958428072675noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8957911.post-5032763685012546002013-09-18T11:31:52.987-07:002013-09-18T11:31:52.987-07:00And to all a good night. I'm closing comments ...And to all a good night. I'm closing comments on this posting now; I'm not really interested in hosting anti-intellectual attacks on Zerbinetta.Lisa Hirschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14014924958428072675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8957911.post-64689282604576787252013-09-18T11:30:57.348-07:002013-09-18T11:30:57.348-07:00It's not patronizing nonsense at all to sugges...It's not patronizing nonsense at all to suggest that one might understand the stage action better, and its relationship to the music better, if one actually understood the language in which a work is being performed. Because....you would have more direct access to the text.<br /><br />Think of it as the difference between seeing (or reading) a Shakespeare play in English and seeing it in French, or with highly truncated Supertitles.<br /><br />Not sure who you are, Mr./Ms. Anonymous, but you have a huge chip on your shoulder about this if you're so unable to think clearly about what Zerbinetta says.Lisa Hirschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14014924958428072675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8957911.post-71757090147109742842013-09-18T11:27:49.294-07:002013-09-18T11:27:49.294-07:00Micaela is implying that opera becomes more pure /...Micaela is implying that opera becomes more pure / accessible if we give the drama equal attention. This is patronizing nonsense. <br /><br />Never mind the fact that most opera as a piece of theatre hardly ever stands on its own (no need to dig up examples, the reverse is more difficult), the lines are often not comprehensible even in one's native language. Vocalists (rightly) concentrate on musical delivery.<br /><br />The programme notes and reading beforehand are always the best way of finding out what the opera is about.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8957911.post-7294021337019643152013-09-18T10:56:59.106-07:002013-09-18T10:56:59.106-07:00You think there's something "snobbish&quo...You think there's something "snobbish" about noting the well-established <i>fact</i> that Americans have poor foreign language skills and speculating that this influences how Americans view opera? Lisa Hirschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14014924958428072675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8957911.post-72014940386785082062013-09-18T10:51:58.319-07:002013-09-18T10:51:58.319-07:00I was reading Micaela Baranello’s blog for the fir...I was reading Micaela Baranello’s blog for the first time this morning and came across this bit of snobbery. She posted it a few years ago: <br /><br /><b>“I think Americans, due to our usually pathetic language skills, concentrate mostly on the music because the drama is easier to ignore when you can't understand what anyone is saying. I don't know your background, but that's what I've picked up from talking to older (than me) opera fans, mostly of the LP era and didn't grow up with titles in the opera house”<br /></b>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8957911.post-58523020482386349672013-09-18T10:49:17.373-07:002013-09-18T10:49:17.373-07:00Just to be clear, I love staged opera. My previous...Just to be clear, I love staged opera. My previous point is directed toward people who think there's something particularly pure about divorcing the music of opera from its theatrical side.<br /><br />You can have a great performance of a mediocre work (really)<br /><br />As for whether an audience adds to the experience, talk to actors some time, and they'll tell you all about good and bad audiences. Yes, actually, the audience and its spirit do add (or in some cases, subtract) something to the experience.<br /><br />Singers screw up a lot. Why do you think there are prompters?<br />Lisa Hirschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14014924958428072675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8957911.post-72119657759017061802013-09-18T10:39:05.288-07:002013-09-18T10:39:05.288-07:00"If you think that sitting alone and listenin..."If you think that sitting alone and listening to a recording - no sets, no audience, no live singers who might make mistakes"<br /><br />"no sets"<br /><br />If you take the stage performance away, do we still have a great work? Of course. If you take the music away, do we still have a great work? Of course not. I have many recordings of operas I haven't seen... And I LOVE them.<br /><br />"no audience"<br /><br />At its best, opera and classical music are solitary and personal experiences. It's between just you and the sound coming from the orchestra, vocalists etc. The fact that there are a few hundred people sitting in the same room with me doesn't add anything to the experience.<br /><br />"No live singers who might make mistakes"<br /><br />But how often does that happen? Is it that important?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8957911.post-21148585998177622122013-09-18T10:00:10.987-07:002013-09-18T10:00:10.987-07:00If you think that sitting alone and listening to a...If you think that sitting alone and listening to a recording - no sets, no audience, no live singers who might make mistakes - is the highest form of loving opera (and GCR claims to believe this), why, what's purer or more opera-loving than <i>reading the score</i> and dispensing with the audio portion entirely, except for what you yourself conjure up?Lisa Hirschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14014924958428072675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8957911.post-15674801689360801442013-09-18T09:47:35.395-07:002013-09-18T09:47:35.395-07:00To the anonymous commenter above:
This is a diffi...To the anonymous commenter above:<br /><br />This is a difficulty that has irritated philosophers of aesthetics and their readers for a very long time and I agree with you that being able to read a score does not automatically translate into loving something more deeply. <br /><br />Is the sensitive listener (non-musician) missing out on a whole lot? Does studying the score really make a huge contribution to one's aesthetic experience?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06444666513446003930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8957911.post-1794536859356263432013-09-18T09:28:27.052-07:002013-09-18T09:28:27.052-07:00Clearly neither, in a straightforward sense, thoug...Clearly neither, in a straightforward sense, though the latter could hardly exist without the former, whereas the converse is certainly not the case. But how would someone be able to assess the relationship between them without being able to read music? It would be akin to my claiming textual expertise on Pushkin without having a word of Russian. (Alas, I cannot read Russian, and therefore have to take others' word for his greatness as a poet: a great pity, I do not doubt, and something I should dearly like to rectify. In the meantime, however...) Mark Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17693194967620507933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8957911.post-81194424403361497992013-09-18T08:56:08.168-07:002013-09-18T08:56:08.168-07:00Mark Berry said:
"And in my experience, the ...Mark Berry said:<br /><br />"And in my experience, the greater number of the ultra-defensive cannot read a score"<br /><br />So what?<br /><br />Is the opera to be identified as the written text or its performance? Is an opera by Verdi the printed score or the sound in the opera house when it is played?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8957911.post-49416732793502936592013-09-17T11:51:24.614-07:002013-09-17T11:51:24.614-07:00Fascinating.
I wonder if GCR would be interested ...Fascinating.<br /><br />I wonder if GCR would be interested in attending a production of Palestrina staged by Bieito? I know I would be. ;)John Marcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17616296400880495672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8957911.post-53094015622203922702013-09-17T10:59:22.892-07:002013-09-17T10:59:22.892-07:00@GCR
I doubt we're going to find any common g...@GCR<br /><br />I doubt we're going to find any common ground here. Even before this particular conversation, my primary example of a bad opera would have been Strauss' _Capriccio_, a work I do know (far too) well and is no more a great opera than "Cats" is a great musical.<br /><br />Yes, the music is pretty good, but it was the product of a composer decades past his prime. And the story, such as it is, is facile and exasperatingly meta. Not unlike "Cats".Michael Walshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08515767073956451871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8957911.post-63855706409005431322013-09-17T09:47:07.519-07:002013-09-17T09:47:07.519-07:00GCR, suggest you start your own blog for this stuf...GCR, suggest you start your own blog for this stuff, seriously. You're risking a vacation from posting here, a match to the temporary ban at Parterre Box.Lisa Hirschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14014924958428072675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8957911.post-89918411291834332672013-09-17T09:38:07.460-07:002013-09-17T09:38:07.460-07:00@ Michael Walsh
"Overly restrictive declarat...@ Michael Walsh<br /><br /><i>"Overly restrictive declarations such as GCR's usually come from willful ignorance or a desire to elevate minor works over the masterpieces because, duh, the music is better"</i><br /><br />Yes, <i>Cardillac</i> is a minor piece but <i>Palestrina</i> is a major work.... It is one of the most beautiful of all post Wagnerian German operas. No, it is NOT a perfect piece. It definitely has its weaknesses/longueurs. But a sensitive listener would have admired the pure craft, the moments AND LONG STRETCHES of astonishing beauty, the brilliant successes of its best portions.<br /><br />And for those who don’t care that much for opera, the 3 fantastic preludes alone are worth anyone’s time.<br /><br />http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513OpqLuBmL._SS500_.jpgAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12254138622622583294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8957911.post-44826288308852214182013-09-17T09:27:35.779-07:002013-09-17T09:27:35.779-07:00@ Will
”I love the idea of a musicology graduate ...@ Will<br /><br /><i>”I love the idea of a musicology graduate student, who is writing a dissertation on opera, somehow not having done her "homework." Maybe she's done it, and knows more than you”</i><br /><br />This makes no sense for 2 reasons. <br /><br /><b>1.</b> We ALL have repertory gaps. (And in this case I don’t believe Ms. Baranello or Michael Walsh have made a good faith effort to get to know it)<br /><br /><b>2.</b> Musicologists can be as just as biased and short-sighted as ‘lay-listeners’ <br /><br /><i>”and knows more than you”</i> <br /><br />She does NOT know more about Pfitzner’s <i>Palestrina</i> than me.... I assure you it is one of my maniacal obsessions. And the <b>Council of Trent</b> (Act II) is one of my favorite acts in all opera.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12254138622622583294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8957911.post-37359416131262035052013-09-17T09:12:05.025-07:002013-09-17T09:12:05.025-07:00Professor Berry,
Thanks for the note and thanks f...Professor Berry,<br /><br />Thanks for the note and thanks for the follow on Twitter last January.<br /><br /><i>”I cannot help but wonder, though, whether Mr/Ms Room (or should that be a double-barrelled Castle Room?) has taken the slightest notice of his/her beloved Capriccio?"</i><br /><br />Of course I know all about the subject matter -- the balance between words and music and which is most important. But the intentions of the composer are irrelevant once the piece is out there. We have to assess it <b>primarily</b> for its musical value and impact. And I honestly don’t see any major weaknesses. I even love the sections of... <i>“flavorless recitative”</i>.<br /><br />At any rate, what Harold Schonberg said it best:<br /><br /><i>”Music succeeds or fails on purely musical terms, and this is true even in opera, where extramusical associations necessarily play a part. No opera has ever remained in the repertory because it has a great libretto. It remains because the music is great”</i> <br /><br />Exactly. In the long run operas survive not so much because of the drama or scenery or spectacle but because musicians and vocalists are impressed by the music. And so I repeat: the most genuine opera lover will focus <i>most</i> of his or her attention first and foremost on the careful study of the musical architecture.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12254138622622583294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8957911.post-30545472721240450952013-09-17T08:55:37.030-07:002013-09-17T08:55:37.030-07:00@ S&R
”Genevieve has been banned from Parterr...@ S&R<br /><br /><i>”Genevieve has been banned from Parterre and has to get her ya-yas out somehow”</i><br /><br />I was put on moderation for a month at Parterre Box simply for quoting a line from this entry.<br /> <br />http://www.soundsandfury.com/soundsandfury/2013/08/the-death-of-opera.html<br /><br />I thought it was ridiculously unfair when you consider all of the ugly/nasty comments by other members directed at singers, administrators, (i.e. the thread about the wedding of Michael Kaiser)<br /><br /><i>”No one possesses the "sophistication" of Genevieve and her arcane tastes”</i><br /> <br />Arcane tastes? What are you talking about? The only ‘esoteric piece’ on my favorites list from last week is <i>De Temporum Fine Comoedia</i><br /><br /><i>”She posts the same exact drivel there and on Opera-L”</i><br /><br />What drivel are you referring to? There is no drivel here. I am very passionate about this one issue of opera appreciation. Trust me, if the majority of young bloggers today weren’t so enamored of production values and trendy directors you would rarely hear from me.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12254138622622583294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8957911.post-64876484923476051522013-09-17T05:39:13.863-07:002013-09-17T05:39:13.863-07:00Whether in person, or as an 'academic', I ...Whether in person, or as an 'academic', I do not seem to be many people's flavour of the month here (save for Lisa herself!) However, I am delighted to be considered one of Micaela's 'ilk'. For what it is worth, I am very fond of Cardillac, less so of Palestrina (though it is clearly an interesting case), and adore Ariadne. Whether it or Capriccio is my favourite Strauss opera I can no more decide than the Countess Madeleine can between Wort and Ton.<br /><br />Enough of that, which need be of little interest to anyone other than me. I cannot help but wonder, though, whether Mr/Ms Room (or should that be a double-barrelled Castle Room?) has taken the slightest notice of his/her beloved Capriccio? Much of the work's raison d'être is the seemingly eternal debate between the rival claims of music, words, and staging. If Strauss, like most but not all of us, ultimately signals ambiguous priority to 'music' - a word, which, itself covers a multitude of sins - then it is certainly not at the expense of other elements.<br /><br />As for the claim, 'If that person at some early point doesn’t have the strong desire to engage in contemplative listening of recordings in private and let it all transpire in their own head and imagination, then he or she is NOT an opera lover,' I think one might well retort that reading and questioning the score would ultimately be more important, whether that be accomplished 'in private' or on top of the Eiffel Tower. Except that it would be ill-mannered and unkind to draw attention to the failings of others, not to mention arrogant to presume that only one road leads to Rome. (As Schoenberg wisely and amusingly observed, it is only the middle road that does not.)<br /><br />For my part, I think Wagner's often misunderstood (largely because unread) idea of the Gesamtkunstwerk comes close to an ideal, not because of its agglomerative possibilities - in that case, a Beethoven sonata would somehow necessarily be inferior to a Donizetti 'comedy' - but because, when dealing with the specific form or forms of opera, each element, insofar as it may be isolated, is heightened, not lessened, by its interplay with the other elements. Just as the harmony and extraordinary coloration of the Tarnhelm gain dramatic meaning and impetus by Wagner's poem, so will they gain further meaning when treated with by an intelligent and, yes, musical stage director. If that is all too much hard work for some people, then the loss is theirs, and that of the world at large, but certainly not Wagner's. Mark Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17693194967620507933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8957911.post-33838600795344868622013-09-16T21:34:42.964-07:002013-09-16T21:34:42.964-07:00S&R - Yes, I saw that GCR was banned, at least...S&R - Yes, I saw that GCR was banned, at least temporarily, from Parterre Box. I have never banned anyone, and have to think about whether drivel is a good enough reason for a ban.Lisa Hirschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14014924958428072675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8957911.post-20601993076502719602013-09-16T21:27:47.421-07:002013-09-16T21:27:47.421-07:00Genevieve has been banned from Parterre and has to...Genevieve has been banned from Parterre and has to get her ya-yas out somehow. She posts the same exact drivel there and on Opera-L but doesn't receive enough validation for her precious little ideas cut and pasted from the blogosphere, so here she is, singing her stale repertoire. <br /><br />No one possesses the "sophistication" of Genevieve and her arcane tastes, and never will, so reasoning with her is futile. So sad. To engage is to encourage this madness.SaneandReasonablenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8957911.post-44480516695149477832013-09-16T21:11:03.986-07:002013-09-16T21:11:03.986-07:00I love the idea of a musicology graduate student, ...I love the idea of a musicology graduate student, who is writing a dissertation on opera, somehow not having done her "homework." Maybe she's done it, and knows more than you.Willhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00001122423953519326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8957911.post-3374481667276816752013-09-16T20:13:04.125-07:002013-09-16T20:13:04.125-07:00"There is today a growing number of operagoer...<b> <i>"There is today a growing number of operagoers who positively revel in the challenge of "unpacking" (to use their oft-used term) the meaning of Konzept Regietheater stagings of canonical operas as they might revel in the challenge of solving a clever rebus or acrostic" </i> </b><br /><br />A most annoying breed to be sure. <br /><br />The undue regard these people have for theatrical conventions, dramaturgical effects, and histrionic excesses which tend to draw attention away from the ideal performance of music and libretto is getting very tiresome.<br /><br />Most operas CAN be experienced and fully enjoyed without ‘theatrical contingencies’. A fully staged, action packed performance of your typical libretto without music, on the other hand, is just about unthinkable, except as a mild curiosity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8957911.post-24667092437160121102013-09-16T20:04:11.681-07:002013-09-16T20:04:11.681-07:00Re: Ms. Castle Room's declarations about the n...Re: Ms. Castle Room's declarations about the nature of "genuine" opera lovers:<br /><br />Q: How many elitists does it take to change a light bulb?<br />A: Two, but the bulb is never changed, because no matter how many, they all think only one elitist is currently in the room.<br /><br />I think opera is the world's best example of multimedia, and the best operas succeed in all of their artistic directions. Overly restrictive declarations such as GCR's usually come from willful ignorance or a desire to elevate minor works over the masterpieces because, duh, the music is better. I don't find these opinions terribly helpful.Michael Walshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08515767073956451871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8957911.post-17265329790668911452013-09-16T18:47:31.971-07:002013-09-16T18:47:31.971-07:00Sticking to facts:
1. There are a lot of CDs (and...Sticking to facts:<br /><br />1. There are a lot of CDs (and other formats before them) sold.<br /><br />2. There are many radio broadcasts<br /><br />3. There are, in traditional U-shaped theaters, seats without visibility that are being actually sold.<br /><br />4. There are recitals of arias, set pieces, etc. separated from the opera they are part of.<br /><br />5. There are concert opera performances...<br /><br />So the evidence is overwhelming that for the majority of opera fans, staging comes a distinct second. The visual component of the genre is not perceived as being nearly as important as the musical architecture or the text.<br /><br />On the other hand, there are other opera fans that think the genre is, first and foremost, about live theater. You can watch live, on TV, on the cinema, on a DVD... And there is nothing wrong with that either.<br /><br />But I fall into the first group. I quite prefer to listen to CD's and read the libretto, and let my imagination fill in the details. Not unlike reading a book versus watching a movie based on a book - I would almost always choose the former.Alekseihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11581363302791171286noreply@blogger.com